On Trend with Chip Griffin

AI, business development, pricing, the future of PR - all the latest trends. Oh, the things we get to talk about when we’re joined by Chip Griffin of the Small Agency Growth Alliance. Listen to this episode to get the latest scoop.

Learn more about Chip and SAGA here.

 

Transcript

Michelle Kane (00:02):

Thank you for joining us for this episode of That Solo Life, the podcast for PR pros and marketers who work for themselves, people like me, Michelle Kane of VoiceMatters, my wonderful co-host, Karen Swim of Solo PR Pro. And today we have a guest. We are absolutely thrilled to be joined once again by Chip Griffin of the Small Agency Growth Alliance. Hello, Chip.

Chip Griffin (00:26):

It is great to be back here. I love being with the two of you.

Michelle Kane (00:29):

Ah, likewise, likewise.

Karen Swim, APR (00:31):

We are so excited. This totally makes our week. Thank you so much for hanging out with us, .

Chip Griffin (00:36):

Thank you for having me.

Michelle Kane (00:37):

So we're talking trends today and top of mind for most people in PR and beyond is of course AI. It's, you know, it's being thrown around in the news and people either are using it or are afraid of it, are just completely ignorant of it. But it's here. And, you know, Solo PR Pros, we like to think of ourselves as savvy smarties. We're just wondering what's, what's your take of what you're seeing out there right now?

Chip Griffin (01:12):

Well, my wise guy answer that I gave to an agency owner who asked me a couple of weeks ago about it, I said, “AI, what, what's that? I haven't really heard much about this.” And he had first thought I was serious.  In any case, I mean, look, AI is absolutely top of mind for just about everybody right now. It is something that, I don't think I've had a conversation with any agency owner who hasn't brought it up. It is something that all communicators are talking about. Some are afraid of it, some are excited about it. Very few are really squarely in the middle as far as I've seen. And I think that really it's just incumbent upon folks to learn as much as they can about what new opportunities exist out there and figure out how they can implement it within their own businesses. Whether you are a solo or in-house or whatever, there's a lot of things that you can do with AI to make you more effective, more efficient. And I would be focused on that rather than on the, the scary side of it that a lot of people like to dwell on from time to time.

Michelle Kane (02:09):

Right, right. Like the recent letter of doom from hundreds of tech leaders, .

Chip Griffin (02:17):

Right. Well, and you have to keep in mind that, that a lot of time, I mean, if you have the people who are already involved in AI saying, “Hey, we need to regulate it,” usually that's because they want to protect their own stake. And you see this in many industries. The large players often call for more regulation because it keeps out upstarts and it protects their position. So I would take that with a grain of salt, personally.

Michelle Kane (02:40):

Yeah. Nice big shaker of salt.

Karen Swim, APR (02:44):

Yeah. It reminds me of every technological invention that has ever happened, how there is this fear that it's going to disrupt our way of life. And I'm not saying that the concerns around AI are not well founded. They are. So, as communicators, I agree with you, we need to use it. We need to learn it. And we also do need to be aware of the risk and the concerns around it so that we can guard against that. So one big one for me is understanding how AI can be used to spread mis information, which is a growing problem, and it has been for many years, and it continues to be something that we really have to deal with. So you really have to understand it so that you can educate your clients and so you know how to monitor their brand reputation, because you don't want false statements attributed to clients. You know, if anybody's operating without crisis plans, you need to get on top of that immediately, because these are all things that can and do happen, particularly for high profile individuals where images are being used and manipulated and they're getting better. You know, AI technology is getting better, so it can be more difficult to spot the fakes than in the past.

Chip Griffin (04:09):

But this is, I mean, it really isn't something new. It does make it easier. It does make it more polished in some cases. You know, if you take a look at what Photoshop has done now with, with its ability to use generative AI, it's, it's really, frankly, amazing as a photographer. I love what it allows me to do for my clients in a good way, but it certainly does open up other risks. But, I think we've just, that's an extension of what we've seen for a long period of time. And so, we absolutely need to be attuned to it. But at the same time, we shouldn't shy away from it and say, geez, you know, we don't really want to touch this AI thing, which I've seen some communicators say, you know, we don't, we won't use any content that's AI-generated or AI influenced or anything like that.

I think that's bonkers. I think you need to, to be in a position where you're leveraging AI effectively. And the reality is AI is going to change PR and marketing. It absolutely is. There's no way that PR and marketing five years from now looks exactly the same way that it did last year, because AI will have changed it. But that doesn't mean that's a bad thing. It just means you need to adapt. If you're putting out schlock content, yeah, AI probably is going to replace you. So don't put out schlock content, but that would be my advice even before AI .

Michelle Kane:

Exactly. Exactly.

 

 

Karen Swim, APR (05:22):

But I would also say, you know, I have just tried to be an avid learner, and so I've used it right from the beginning. And as an example, yesterday I went in and so I use it for idea generation. I've experimented with things like I've said I'm pitching this, what are the best reporters? And it spit back a list that matched my list perfectly. But there was one reporter that I hadn't thought of that actually was perfect. And so why wouldn't I use a tool that's going to help me to do my job better? So yesterday I had it write a press release for me and I gave it very specific points, like, here's some bullet points here, here's what I'm doing, write a press release regarding this.

So I gave it the information. I vetted some key points and bullet points. The press release came back and I shot it to our shared drive and I shared it with my colleague and I was like, check out what AI did – not meaning like, okay, it's time for you to edit this. Because I had not gone in and done the personalization and the edits. It was so good that she went in, she goes, “Oh, I only had one change.” And I started laughing. I go, “Yeah, I hadn't worked on that.”

Michelle Kane (06:45):

Karen Swim, APR (06:46):

Obviously we did not send that version to the client, but it just goes to show that it was good. It was actually good, and it's because I've gotten better at asking it to do things. So I've noticed from my early efforts that the content that it generates has gotten much more refined because I've learned how to really work with it. Why wouldn't I as a PR pro spend my time using my brain for my clients and really adding value, spending more time on the strategic work, spending more time on the deep focus work. A press release is table stakes. I mean, I don't understand why people are fighting this so hard or making it seem like it's this horrible, terrible thing if AI assisted you. Yes. I use AI in my work. It streamlines a lot of tasks. It's capable of doing a lot of things and helping me to grab time back that can be used for higher value activities. So, I think people just, you know, there's like these camps setting up like you're less of a PR pro if you use it. And I think that's just wrong.

Michelle Kane (07:57):

I'm seeing it too. I'm seeing different articles and it makes perfect sense, you know, to stay sharp. Those of us who learn how to use AI well in our work are the ones who are going to keep up and or stay ahead of the curve. If you totally table it, what's the point? I was heartened, I belong to the Philadelphia PR Association and we had a session last week with three profs from Temple, and they are helping their students do that very thing, you know, learn how to use this. They aren't -- you know, sadly, I've seen some from the English departments going, “Oh my gosh, make a go away. Like, okay, I get that to a point. But it was really heartening to see them both embrace it and truly study what does this mean for our profession moving forward? So, it's exciting too because why not try and save time? And I don't know about both of you, but many times there is that deeper strategic thinking that you sometimes don't have the opportunity to get to because you're in okay, we need this, we need that, we need this mode. This could solve for that for sure.

Chip Griffin (09:18):

Well, and that's the thing. If I'm a solo or a small agency, I'm really excited about AI because it's a force multiplier for me. It is giving me resources that I would've had to pay a lot for and probably couldn't have afforded earlier. I describe AI in mid-2023 is basically like having an intern most of the time. It does a pretty decent job at what you ask it to do. Sometimes it really knocks your socks off and you're like, “Wow, that's great.” And occasionally it's just awful.  And, you've got to start over. But that's, I mean, that's what having an intern is. And you know, Karen, you described having to learn how to use it. It's the same thing if you have an intern, you have to figure out how to give them instructions correctly to get what you want.

Same thing with AI. You've got to learn how to give the instructions. The benefit is the AI doesn't go away after a few months. Right? And so you'll be able to continue to, and on top of that, the intern also continues to improve in that period of time. Someone said to me that, that right now AI is the worst it will ever be. Which is I think a great way of thinking about it. Despite all of the flaws that Chat GPT has and some of the image generators have, it's only going to get better. It's not going to get worse from here. So to me, that's incredibly exciting and you just have to figure out how can you take advantage of that for the work that you are doing on behalf of your clients.

Michelle Kane (10:33):

Exactly.

Karen Swim, APR (10:33):

I really agree. I mean, and also funny, it's always funny to me that people are up in arms. AI is not new . It's not just really, we've been using AI for quite a few years. I hate to break it to you, but we really have. It's just, I think, come to the mainstream's attention at this point that we have artificial intelligence and there are some uses that are now becoming more popularized, but it's not new like it's been around.

Chip Griffin (11:07):

Well, yeah. And part of it is that AI is one of those terms that gets thrown around loosely and has been for many years. I mean, the number of companies that in the last decade have claimed that they used AI for this or that, and I knew how they were doing things behind the scenes, I'd be like, yeah, that's not really AI. And frankly, a lot of what's being called AI today I think you can debate whether it is truly AI and it's certainly not general artificial intelligence, which is something that you know, is what people historically have thought of as AI. You know, someone that's completely a robot that's completely autonomous goes out and acts just like a human. We are, as far as I know, miles away from that still.  And so, but you're right, we have been using this, I mean, how long ago was it that Google Voice added automated transcription? That was a long time ago. That was at a decade ago that they started doing it, and it was pretty awful when it started. I mean, I remember laughing at some of the transcriptions. I would get a voicemail, so I'd be like, yeah, I don't think I have that kind of relationship with my brother. I'm pretty sure . So , I mean, it did had some really bizarre stuff. And, and even today, you know, if you look at Siri, some of the stuff that that happens that you, some of the responses you get, they're awful. They're just awful. But we've been using that for years. And so it's, it's just something that, that's going to continue to get better. We need to, to not overestimate what it can do for us today, because it can't just go out and write from scratch perfectly every time.

So if we're expecting that that's a mistake, and I see some communicators who are building that into their plans, like, “I don't have to hire a writer because I can just use AI to do this.” Well, yeah, that might work occasionally, but what's going to happen when you count on it and you didn't book enough time and you didn't book a resource to be able to do it, now you got into trouble. So you need to be thoughtful about how you use some of these technologies and tools that are still very much in their early stages. I mean, Chat GPT is often unavailable when you go to try to use it. And it's been getting better. I see that message a lot less often now than I did a couple of months ago, but still sometimes it's not right there. And so if you're leaning on it for something that is urgent, I would think twice about that.

Karen Swim, APR (13:14):

Right. Or you could just pay the 20 bucks a month and always have access.

Chip Griffin (13:19):

I still get the message even with the paid with the pro level.

Karen Swim, APR (13:22):

Oh, I haven't been seeing it at all since the paid, so, interesting.

Chip Griffin (13:26):

Yeah. It depends on the time of day in my experience. If it's peak east coast time, you know, late morning, that's when I tend to see it the most. But I tend to use it more in the evenings anyway, since I tend to be on calls almost all day, so

Karen Swim, APR (13:40):

Yeah. , well, we've, we've covered AI. What other trends are you seeing Chip?

Chip Griffin (13:47):

Well, I think, from a business development standpoint, anybody who is out there trying to work with clients, I think most people are seeing some degree of a slowdown in the pipeline. Not necessarily in the number of prospects are in the pipeline or even the types of projects that are there. But the, the, the length of time it takes to close a deal seems to be increasing for many agencies, many solos. That's not, it's not across the board. And I always warn people, you've got to be careful because a lot of these things are very sector specific. If you're doing work in the tech space, yeah. A lot of those folks have slowed down. Some of those have cut back on the business that they're doing with outside agencies and contractors because they're trying to be more careful. If they're laying off staff, chances are they're going to cut back on their agencies too. But that does create opportunities. And so you need to be looking for those as well, because if a company has laid off a lot of internal staff, they still have PR and marketing needs. Yeah. They might be able to turn to you on the outside to help them with that in the interim.

Karen Swim, APR (14:43):

I 100% agree. I mean, there has been this weird, because the economy has, you know, been so all over the place and companies were doing layoffs, but in reality, those layoffs were not cutting to the bone. They were cutting excess because they staffed up artificially for the pandemic. So yeah. It was really a correction. And so I didn't get too up in arms about that. But investors are also driving some of the reductions as they're requiring you know, the free money era is kind of over for now because of the, you know, the interest rates and inflation and all that's going on. That money's not falling like it was before. And so they are forcing companies that, you know, once they didn't care if you were in the red, but now it's all about, you know, being in the black, which means that they have to cut back.

Chip Griffin (15:46):

Yeah. And, and the reality is, a lot of these tech staff cuts right now have very little to do with the actual economic situation. Most of them are as, as you say, because they staffed up too quickly. Some of it is because they did the dumb things the tech companies like to do, like just hiring staff so that their competitors can't have them. And so, I mean, there have been numerous stories that I've seen of large tech companies having groups of people that sit around doing nothing. Yes. Because they were simply hired so that they wouldn't go work for the competition.

Karen Swim, APR (16:14):

100%.

Chip Griffin (16:16):

That's wildly stupid

Karen Swim, APR (16:18):

. It's, which is why, you know, tech workers often had three jobs going at the same time.

Chip Griffin (16:28):

Right. Why not ? I mean, yeah, yeah. I'm not being asked to do anything. I might as well double dip or triple dip. Yeah.

Karen Swim, APR (16:33):

Yeah. And then they were like, oh, got laid off from my second job. So now I only have two. I mean, how, and you know what? I 100% admire the hustle as long as they weren't breaking their employment contracts. Right. If you can do your job for three people and have added this. You know, most people these days have more than one gig anyway. You know, you have a gig and a side gig or a business and a side business. So I, maybe that's the way of the future.

Chip Griffin (17:04):

Yeah. I mean, and, and it's certainly something I'm a big believer in. I don't, I don't think I've ever had or haven't had a single source of income since I had hair with glasses . So that was, that was decades ago. .

Karen Swim, APR (17:17):

I would definitely, you know, it's, it's back to that older adage. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. I'm a big believer in that, to have multiple channels of income always. Because you can't rely on one source and if your job is your one source, as we know, you have very little control over what happens with that job.

Chip Griffin (17:37):

Well, I think also, creative ambitious people, variety is a good thing too. I mean, for me, that's a big piece of it. I mean, yes, it's, it's nice to have diversification, but a lot of it is just, it gives me different things to focus on at, at different points in the day or week. And so I enjoy that. And I know a lot of other people who are the same way. They just want something else to, to interest them and, and pursue and they don't have to worry about one thing 24 7.

Karen Swim, APR (18:00):

Yeah, that's very true. Yeah. I think a lot of PR people are like that too. Oh my God. I think we would go insane if it was just PR .

Chip Griffin (18:10):

Well, and I think that's the other trend that we probably can touch on here, which is that PR is becoming much less traditional. There are very few folks who practice PR today that can practice it the same way they did 15 or 20 years ago. You really need to have a much broader skillset set. And I think AI is certainly going to accelerate that need because there's going to be a demand from clients for you to do more than simply basic media relations. So, when I'm talking with an agency that does simply media relations, they've got to have a real strong differentiator to be able to make a solid go of that in 2023. It's just, you really need to have a much broader skillset in order to be able to work with clients effectively.

Karen Swim, APR (18:57):

Oh, I completely agree with you. That media landscape is not your friend right now. It is ugly out there. It doesn't mean that you can't get opportunities. But again, this is not new. I can remember saying this, you know, five years ago, like, do not lean on one lever in your public relations practice. Now that does not mean that there are people that cannot focus and specialize. You absolutely can do that. People have done that with great success where they are honed in on a specialty, and that's what they do. They don't do me media relations at all. They, they have a specialty. We have some pros that they only do media relations. That's all they do. They don't do anything else. Doesn't mean that they're doing it the same way that they were doing it 20 years ago, but that's their specialty. That's their area of expertise.

But for those that are a little more general and have a robust practice, you need to utilize all of the things that are in our tool bag. And I think for every single person, no matter what your area of specialty is, you really need to be a strategist. Yes. I'm very surprised how many people lean on the tactical and there's no strategy and they're not aligned with the business goals that is not going to fly. Right. Going forward. You may have been able to skate by on the tactical for a period of time. I truly believe those days are over. And that you are going to have to get very comfortable with speaking the language of the business. And you have to be very confident in presenting metrics and aligning with goals that matter, not yes, the goals that matter to you as a PR person, but the goals that matter to your clients, to their business. You have to be comfortable talking about how you're supporting the bottom line. If you're not comfortable with that, you're going to not be chosen or you're not going to keep jobs with those large enterprise companies because they care. They do care about their bottom line and they care about drawing the line from PR to revenue. And, and I know I, I've heard people say this, well, you can't. Yes, you can. You can measure your efforts.

Chip Griffin (21:09):

Well, yeah. But also, measure, report your results to clients. Don't report your efforts. Because that's, I mean, I see these reports that are being delivered to clients where it's like, “We pitched X number of reporters,” Who cares? I don't care how many people you pitched or how many emails you sent out. What did you generate from that? Right? Now I'm okay with you saying, we pitched 50 reporters and got no bites. If you're saying, look, we need to look in a different direction, I think that's helpful. But if you're doing it simply to say, Hey, we tried really hard. Yes. Okay. I mean, there's not a participation medal here in the kind of work that we do.

Michelle Kane (21:45):

No, no.

Karen Swim, APR (21:47):

I agree. I mean, recently we had to share with a client that a particular piece of news was just not interesting to the media. And so then in that case, you do need to summarize what the response was, what you were hearing. And then better than that, we suggested a new strategic plan because this was something that they had been doing. And we said, don't do that anymore. It doesn't work. No one cares.

Chip Griffin (22:12):

And you should do that because if you're just an order taker and are executing bad orders, it's going to be reflecting on you. They don't sit there and say, “Oh, I gave dumb instructions.” They say, “My agency, my solo was just awful.”

Michelle Kane (22:24):

Yes.

Chip Griffin (22:25):

Even though they were just following your instructions. So if you get bad instructions, bad guidance, bad requests, push back, tell them it's not a good idea.

Michelle Kane (22:32):

Yeah. and that speaks back to the need to focus on strategy. It's like, why are you doing this, this, why, what is your goal? I think those are the first questions you always need to be thinking of and always need to be asking.

Chip Griffin (22:52):

And AI helps you to do that to come full circle in our conversation.

Michelle Kane (22:56):

I was just going to say , what if we had some kind of online mechanism to help us ?

Karen Swim, APR (23:04):

So anything else that you're seeing out there, Chip, that we should be aware of? Because you deal with agencies and enterprise and you are the man in the know.

Chip Griffin (23:14):

I think the other thing, and, I'm not sure whether it's a trend that something that's been going on for a long period of time, but I think because of some of the economic conditions, particularly inflation is getting worse, is the inability of folks to correctly price their services. And that is something that I think is going to become an acute problem, given that costs are rising so substantially for most of us in the work that we're doing in the lives that we lead. And if you're not pricing correctly, that's a problem. What I hear people say is, “Well, geez, but this client will never pay more than this, or they've always paid this, or this is what we charge in our old agency.” None of that matters. It matters how much it costs you to deliver services today. And if you're not pricing based off of what it actually costs you to deliver the services, then you're going to have a problem. And it doesn't matter whether the client's willing or unwilling to pay that amount. It's, the reality is you got to charge more than it costs, otherwise you fail.

Karen Swim, APR (24:12):

I love that advice. And I would encourage our solos. I've said this before and I think we did, we added it in a recent blog post, but pricing is not just about the cost of the services or your cost per hour. Pricing is also a marketing strategy. And it plays into how prospective clients see you. We all know that, there's definitely science behind this, and it's science that's used by everyone that sets prices. Your prices are too high, way too high, then it's going to turn your market off. Your prices are too low, it's going to cause them to think of you as a budget option, and it's going to diminish the value that they see that they get from you. And so you really have to find that place where your prices are high enough that they communicate that you are offering a quality, thoughtful service and not solo, that they think of you as just a replaceable freelancer. You're just another cog. And unfortunately, I still do see so many solos price or services so low that they're, they're doing things for rates that I wouldn't, there's, I would not take a phone call for some of the rates that you charge a client per month. It's not enough money. So consider that and, and what happens, you end up having these clients that don't want to pay you the meager amounts of money that you're charging them. They require you to overservice them for that tiny amount of money. They're the worst clients in the world. You want to price yourself higher. And I will tell you that the more money that you earn in your career, it not only helps people to see you differently, it helps you to see yourself differently. It's hard to think of yourself as a value professional. If you're charging a client a thousand dollars a month and it really should be 10, it's very, you start to see yourself, you shrink your own value down to that thousand dollars level and not at that $10,000 level.

So do yourself a favor and start to get confident to raise your rates and you can raise them on new clients because as you get more new clients, you can then go and sift away the bottom feeders. But we, nobody needs that in their life. Don't do that. You know, don't price yourself so low that people don't see the talent that you have. And then you start to believe that in your head too, and you start to become what you're charging and that's not okay when the price is too low.

Michelle Kane (26:56):

Couldn't agree more.

Chip Griffin (26:58):

I'm so glad that you described pricing as a positioning tool because it absolutely is. And I think people underestimate that and the message that you send to the marketplace about the value of what you're delivering. I will say that I do what I preach is what I call floor to ceiling pricing. And I do think that before you start looking at how you're using pricing or positioning or how you get into value pricing or charge premiums, you need to know your floor. And I think that that too many solos and small agencies have no idea what it truly costs them to deliver and what that minimum price is that they need to charge in order to make what they're looking to make. And I do think you need to know that floor first, then absolutely. Go find that ceiling by trying these different things and, and trying different positioning and char try value pricing and those kinds of things. But don't come into those things until you know what it actually costs you to deliver. Otherwise, you may be putting yourself in an even worse position.

Karen Swim, APR (27:56):

Yeah. I mean, we have minimum budget amounts. We have minimum budgets for ongoing clients. We also do projects, we fit in projects every quarter. We have a certain amount and we have minimum project pricing, period. Because we know that anything below that, we can't really be effective. And there, it's written down. So it's not something that we have to guess at every single time. Like, oh, what should that be? No, we have a minimum. And if somebody comes in and they're below our minimum, then we can say that like, I'm sorry, this is below our minimum. If you have more budget, here's what we could do for you.

Michelle Kane (28:30):

Right, exactly. And keeping in mind, too, there's room for scaling within your floor to ceiling concept.

Chip Griffin (28:38):

Absolutely,

Michelle Kane (28:38):

You can still be effective, but just having that transparency with the prospect or the client, just so they know.

Karen Swim, APR (28:49):

Yeah. And I would say, hang out in circles, hang out with people that are where you want to be. There's something truly transformative in that. I can remember, for me, I was early on in my PR career and I was at a Solo PR Pro summit and they had people close their eyes and raise their hands at their rate per hour. Shiny new girl that I was, was blown away by how many people were raising their hand at charging $400 an hour. To me back then that was like, “Oh my God, really?” But it was eye opening. And so yeah, being in a space with people that were charging those amounts and had been doing it and were doing well helped me to elevate my thinking and understand what the possibilities were, because I honestly didn't know. Since then, I've been in rooms with people in different industries. You know, I was with somebody recently that had a 10 million project and it wasn't 10 million for 10 years . And all he did was strategy.

Michelle Kane (29:58):

Dreamy

Karen Swim, APR (29:58):

And I'm like, I’m a strategist too. I'm actually really good at strategy . So, again, being in rooms with people that are doing exactly what you're capable of, you have a brain, you know how to think, you know how to use it. And seeing what others are willing to pay for that really does help you to start to get outside of your own box. And it starts to erase the limitations that we sometimes place on ourselves. And so I would advise you to do that. Stop hanging out with people that are charging $50 an hour. And start going into those spaces where people are charging more, getting more learning what they're doing and hearing that and adopting that for yourself.

Chip Griffin (30:39):

And I know plenty of solos who charge less than $50 an hour, which is crazy in 2023. I mean, these are people with decades of experience. It makes no sense to me. You need to know how to understand your own worth. You need to be realistic about it because otherwise you will continue to sell yourself short and good clients are willing to pay more than you think they are. The bad clients are the ones who want to nickel and dime you

Michelle Kane (31:06):

And micromanage you, just to top it all off and I would say even practitioners who maybe it's at the tail end of their career and it's just for fun, or to keep them busy, but, please don't undercut your prices because that hurts the whole profession. So get that money that you deserve and it, you know, it lifts all of us to where we really should be.

Chip Griffin (31:32):

Amen.

Karen Swim, APR (31:33):

And that sounds like a good note to,

Michelle Kane (31:35):

It does

Karen Swim, APR (31:36):

end on that. We should use AI, charge higher prices, think better of yourself and you'll do better work for your clients. But before we go, and Michelle's going to take us out, I just want to remind everybody, we recently reached a huge milestone of recording over 200 episodes of this program.

Michelle Kane (31:59):

Whoo!

Karen Swim, APR (32:01):

We're working on ourselves, , and we want to reach more people because there aren't a lot of PR focused podcasts that have been around for as long as we have. And we've been really consistent and we feel like we're just getting started. We're having the time of our life. We get to talk with great smart thinkers like Chip. So please, please, please, before you exit with us today, hit the subscribe button, follow our channel, subscribe to us, follow us on your favorite podcast app. We always have the podcast also on our website at soloprpro.com. You just hit the back slash button for the podcast. You can listen there, but please subscribe and share, share, share, share. We want you to tell all of your other colleagues about it and even the people that aren't in PR Yeah. Can gain something from the episodes. Because we talk about a lot of business topics that apply outside of our industry. So do us that favor and thank you for staying with us, but please share, please, like stay tuned. More to come more chip to come .

Michelle Kane (33:07):

Yes, absolutely. And I'll even issue a challenge if you found one good nugget in today's episode, thanks to Chip in this great conversation, use that, share that, hashtag us #solopr. That would be wonderful. Be good for you, good for us, good for everybody. But we also want to thank Chip Griffin for spending all of this time with us. He is with these small Agency Growth Alliance. Please check them out. What's the best  URL for that, Chip?

 

Chip Griffin

smallagencygrowth.com.

 

Michelle Kane

Boom. We thank you so much for spending this time with us and until next time, thanks for joining us on That Solo Life.